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Interview of Clara Margaret Papps née Duggan
The following is a transcript of part of an interview of Clara Margaret Papps née Duggan, by her daughter Charlie Hick, in 1984, when Clara was 77 years old. This interview is published here with the permission of Charlie Hicks who retains the copyright to it. Clara talks about her parents, her siblings, her life, and life in general in the East End of London during the first three decades of the 20th century. It includes details of the housing conditions, the public baths, the workhouse, schooling and working conditions.
(Can you tell us a bit about your parents? What did your father do for a living?)
He was a docker.
(Was he doing that when you were born?)
No. He was a carman when I was born but, later on...
(What is a carman?)
A carman is driving a horse and cart, which was very popular in those days before cars and motors came along.
(What sort of things did they have on the cart? I mean, did they work for local shops?)
Well, they went down to the docks and carried, carted all the stuff from off the ships.
(Oh, I see.)
Because motor vehicles weren't about in those days, when I was a child.
(And could you tell us a little bit about your mother? Did she work as well?)
She worked when the first War was on. She went out to work because women were needed more then, and she continued to work right through the war in a biscuit factory that made biscuits for soldiers and sailors, and [these] were packed and shipped out to the troops. My father continued to work in the docks and, as I say,...
(So this was during the years 1914-18?)
That's right.
(And after the war your father continued to work in the docks?)
Oh, yes, always. Right up until the time he died [in 1928] he worked in the docks. My mother always went to work after that.
(And what did she do after the biscuit factory? Did she stay there when the war ended?)
No. She wasn't needed so much, you see, with the biscuits then for the troops. She went into a jam factory, and she was there for a number of years. I can't remember how long but it was one of those places where she always went out to work.
(When you were born was she working shortly after then?)
When I was born [in 1906] she worked as an office cleaner.
(Oh, yes.)
You see, that was when I was born, and she did that night and morning after the offices were closed. She used to clean the offices and then come home and look after us.
(Where were the offices?)
In the City.
(And how far away from your home was that?)
Well, I think quite a...
(A mile? I mean, did she have to go on a bus?)
Oh, she had to go on a tram. In those days there wasn't buses, there was trams, you see.
(Oh, a tram.)
Yes. She used to have to go up to Charing Cross.
(And what time in the morning would that be?)
That would have been, I think they started about, she would have left home about half-past six and they started about seven until about half-past eight. They had to be out of the offices before the workers came in.
(And what sort of thing did she do there?)
Oh, in those days there was no vacuums or anything like that. They had to do anything on their hands and knees, and, also, they had to light fires and that in those days and, as I say, there wasn't all the mechanical aids that they've got now.
(They had to light the fires because there was no central heating?)
Oh, no.
(In the buildings?)
No. You must remember it was... I was about five, so it must have been about 1911, you see, and she did that until the war came along and then she went into the biscuit factory until 1918-19, and after that she went into a jam factory.
(Did you have any brothers and sisters?)
Yes. I had one brother and one sister, both older than me.
(Ah, so you were the youngest?)
I was the youngest.
(And where did they work?)
My brother was a bus driver.
(And your sister, did she work?)
Yes. She worked. She worked in a factory doing labelling and things like that. Labelling goods, you know. It was a provision factory and there was all sorts of jars and bottles, and they all had to be labelled, and they did those by hand. They never had machines in those days. Everything like that was done by hand, all the labels on jars.
(Oh, I see.)
And they were filled by hand, too. And she did that for a number of years.
(What were the conditions like in the factory where she worked?)
Well, you stood all day. You weren't allowed to sit down.
(Did you have any music?)
Oh, no. That was unheard of. They used to start about eight o'clock in the morning and finish at six. That was during the week, and then eight o'clock Saturday morning until one o'clock, and that was the number of hours you had to do.
(Everybody worked on Saturday mornings?)
Everybody. That's right.
(And did you have somebody in charge of you?)
Yes. You had a forelady. If you had any complaints you went to her with it, or, if she had any complaints, she would tell you off.
(And what about other conditions? Was there a lavatory for everybody, and washing facilities?)
Yes, there was but not so elaborate as they are nowadays. It was a very primitive sort of thing, you know. I mean, I can remember that where I worked we had to boil the kettle of water up in the toilet on a gas ring. There was no recreation room, or anything like that, and you had to make that tea yourself, and that all came out of your time because most of the time we was on piece-work when we was working.
(What does piece-work mean?)
Piece-work meant you only got paid for what you did. You didn't get a standing wage.
(And this was when you worked in a factory, as well?)
This was when I worked in a factory, yes. I was making Christmas crackers then.
(Were there many of you? Or was it a small factory?)
No, it was only a small factory, and it was only seasonal work, you see. I mean, their busiest time was just before Christmas, about the autumn time, to get the stock ready for the shops for Christmas but after Christmas, you was on short time. And that was making the hats, and things that went inside the crackers. But that was piece-work, and you had to work very hard before you could make up your money. And we were on short time after Christmas. That meant that we would finish at four o'clock instead of six o'clock.
(Did you have any machinery in that factory?)
Only for cutting up the papers because the papers all had to be cut into a certain size but, otherwise, there was no other machinery. All these crackers was done by hand.
(And the packing?)
And the packing. Oh, that was all included in the box that you were paid for.
(Okay, Mum, I'm going to ask you a little bit about your childhood now. We know that you were born in East London, and that you grew up in Poplar. Did you?)
Yes.
(And that you were the youngest of a family of three, and that both your parents were working when you were growing up. So, I think we'll just try and have some memories of your childhood now. What are your earliest memories? It doesn't really matter if you can't remember much before you went to school. I just wondered if you could remember anything about being very little. It doesn't matter if you can't.)
Well, nothing special - the normal sort of child starting school.
(How old were you when you went?)
I was five when I first went to school, and I can remember that you had to sit very still, (laughter) and that you weren't allowed the freedom that they are now. And that they had the desks, with two at a desk, and that you were not allowed to speak or move, and when anyone came into the room - a grown-up person, you understand - you had to stand up until you were told to sit down again.
(How big were the classes?)
About forty-eight in the class. They were big classes in those days.
(Was it a very big school?)
No, it was a small school. It wasn't run by the L...
(L.C.C?) [London County Council]
[Not the] L.C.C. It was a Church school and it belonged to St. Anne's Church, where we had to go, regardless, every Friday morning first thing. On Friday morning we had to go, and have this service at Church, and then we all had to line up in a big crocodile, and walk back to school. I can remember having school dinners. We weren't very well off. There was a dock strike on so Father wasn't getting any money so we were allowed [free] school dinners, and you got a special ticket, different colours for every day. And it wasn't the sort of thing now, where people don’t take any notice, it was the sort of thing where they looked down on you for that, and you felt awful because you was taking something that you hadn’t paid for.
(And were there many people who had free school dinners? Were there many poor children?)>
There was quite a few because of the area we lived in. I mean, if the docks closed, if the docks was on strike... Another thing can remember, it was in about 1911. The strike was on first, and I can remember my mother when I was very little going to the Salvation Army, and getting a jug of soup, and a loaf of bread.
(Was that quite a common thing in those days?)
That was a common thing, yes.
(For families that were very poor?)
Yes, because there was no Social Security, no relief whatever. If you didn’t earn your money, you never got anything.
(So families could starve?)
Oh, exactly, yes. There was what they called Parish Relief.
(What was that?)
You had to be really destitute before you got that, you know, and if you couldn't... I can remember lots of people had to go in the workhouse. And the workhouse, when they went in the workhouse, the men went one way, and the women, the other. And they weren't allowed out, or to live together, or anything like that, and when they went into this workhouse, they had to work. The women had to do laundry and scrubbing, and the men had to do sort of manual work, sweeping and all that sort of thing.
(So, if you were very poor in those days...)
Yes, there was no relief whatever.
(You could end up in the workhouse?)
It was all charity. You know, these do-gooders would come along and this is what, I suppose, brought about all this Union business, you know. I think that's what made it more prevalent because there was a lot of poverty.
(You saw a lot of poverty?)
I saw a lot of poverty. It was nothing to see children down there running about with no shoes and socks on.
(Did children come to school like that?)
Yes, some of them did, yes.
(So, there wasn't a school uniform?)
Not when I was little, no. When I got to about thirteen [about 1919] things began to get a little bit better, you know, but there wasn't the school uniform or special... and, of course, we didn't have all the lessons they have now, for sports, or anything like that. That was nothing. You did reading, writing and arithmetic, sewing and domestic, what they called domestic service, and that was housework and things - that was half a day a week, and cookery, that was another half day.
(Was it a mixed school?)
It was a mixed school but you didn't all sit together. The boys had one part of the building, the infants had another part, and the girls had another part.
(And did you stay there all the time?)
Yes.
(From when you were five...)
Until I was fourteen. And when I was fourteen, I left school and I went straight to work. You see, the term finished in July and by August I was out at work.
(What were you doing?)
I was making Christmas crackers. That was my first job, at a big factory, and I got 12/6 a week from that.
(And this would have been, let's see, you were fourteen, so this would have been 1920? Let me think, you were born in 1906, yes, 1920. And you got 12/6 a week. Was that a good wage?)
That was the average, because there were certain wages then. I mean, until you was eighteen you got 12/6 and then after that you went up to about twenty-seven shillings. That was after you were twenty-one.
(So if you were fourteen you couldn't earn a full wage, anyway?)
Not at factory work. It was what they call Board of Trade wages, you see, and, of course, with this 12/6 a week, they taught you how to make the crackers, you see. But I didn't stay there long. I only stayed there for about not quite a year and then my mother kept me at home so that she could go to work [because someone had to be at home] so that she could go to work because she got twenty-seven shillings a week and I would have only got 12/6. So I was kept at home until I was eighteen doing housework and looking after the house.
(Housework must have been very hard then?)
Well, there was no modern utensils. It was all scrubbing and cleaning and the washing, I mean, there was no washing machines. You had to light the copper and build the fire up, and cart all the water into the copper and out of the copper again.
(What sort of house were you living in at that time?)
How do you mean?
(Very small? Or a big house?)
Well, there was three rooms up and three rooms down, but they were very small rooms and it was an outside loo, naturally, but it did have a proper wash-house, with the copper in. [This was 25 Dora Street in Stepney]
(That was attached to the house, was it?)
Oh, yes, yes, it all came in with the house.
(What was in the wash-house?)
A small sink and a tap and the copper in the corner. The copper in the corner was a concrete thing, round, with a fire-grate underneath where you had to build a fire to hot the water before you could start the washing. You had to fill that up, you see, and boil your clothes up in it and, when they were boiled, you took them out and you had to empty all that water out again. There was no tap on it, you had to bale it all out.
(With bowls?)
Yes...yes, a dipper, you had.
(So where did you get the water from?)
A sink in the corner.
(Oh, so you had a tap in the wash-house?)
Yes.
(Was there a basin in the house? Where did people wash themselves?)
Oh, you had a bowl on the table to wash with.
(A bowl on the kitchen table?)
Yes, there was no bathroom.
(No plumbing?)
No bathroom, no. We never had bathrooms.
(Was that quite common?)
Oh, every house was alike, oh, yes, in the small houses in the East End, yes, oh, they never had bathrooms or anything like that, not in those small houses, terraced houses.
(So what did everybody do about baths?)
Well, they bathed in front of the fire. You had a big bath, galvanised, and you filled that up and you heated, unless you had a fire going - in the summer it was you didn't have a fire going - so you heated all the water on the gas stove, and you always had a bath in the winter in front of the fire but, as you got older, there was the Public Baths, and you went to the Public Baths, and that was threepence a time - threepence and sixpence a time, and you had to sit on a long form, and wait your turn.
(What was the difference in price for?)
Well, there was first and second class. I mean, with the sixpenny one, you got soap and towel, but, with the threepenny one, you just took your own soap and towel, you see.
(Oh, I see. Ah, yes, you took your own things and you only had to pay threepence. And how long were you allowed for a bath? Did they put a time limit on it?)
Yes, they did, but I can't remember how long it was but it was all according as to how many were sitting on the form outside. I mean, it was like queuing, only you sat down. (Laughter)
(And did many people go?)
Oh, everybody went as they got older, you know, and, er, you could callout for more hot or more cold water. It was quite funny really because people used to be singing or calling out, or holding a conversation with one another, because it was all open at the top, but you had a proper attendant to turn... the water was turned on from outside you see, so the attendant saw to all that.
(So did you have little cubicles?)
Oh, yes, oh, yes, each cubicle, yes, oh, it was very private.
(And they didn't have taps where you were? You had to shout out if you wanted...?)
Yes... more hot in number so-and-so, more cold in number so-and-so. (Lots of laughter)
(So they were numbered, the cubicles?)
Yes, yes. Yes, that was quite an event. That went on for quite a long time - I should think right up until the 30s a lot of those houses never had bathrooms. I mean, it was only the war, with the bombing, that got all this brought about, and they were made to incorporate baths in the houses...
(In the new houses?)
...and also inside loos - otherwise all the loos were outside in the garden, right at the end of the garden.
(So what did you do if you felt that you wanted to go in the middle of the night? Did everybody have potties under the bed?)
Oh, yes, everybody had potties alright, yes, they were quite the thing.
(What did they call them? Did they have a special name, the potties?)
Only pot. If you liked to be posh, you called them chambers, but they was known as pots, more or less. (Lots of laughter)
(And were they like these beautiful ones you see nowadays in antique shops, with the patterns?)
Yes, isn't it strange? We never thought they were. We were ashamed of them. Now, they are put on show. (Laughter)
(Now, how did we get on to this? Oh, yes, you were telling us a bit about what housework you had to do while your mother went out to work. So, you had to do all your washing by hand?)
Yes, I did.
(And what else did you have to do? What was your working day like, looking after the house?)
I had to go and do the shopping, get the fire alight, do the cooking,
(What sort of facilities did you have for cooking?)
We had a gas stove, and they had only just started to come about, because otherwise they was all kitchen ranges, you know, you had to light the fire.
(So when you were very little you had a kitchen range in the house?)
Yes, yes, you had to have a fire and you heated your kettle on the top of it, and it had an oven at the side of it where you did your cooking. Well, it wasn't too good in the summer months - it was very hot, you know, so they brought the gas stoves out, and made the gas stoves more plentiful, so that in the summer you could cook and hot your water up on the gas stove which, to us, was marvellous.
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